Botany, Shamanism
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What are Ayahuasca analogues?

Analogues are plants or chemicals used in place of the traditional constituents of the ayahuasca brew. Two of the most common are Peganum harmala and Mimosa hostilis, as replacements for the B. caapi vine, and DMT-containing admixture plants, respectively.

There has also been some experimentation with the use of pharmaceutical MAO-Is, most commonly Moclobemide, as well as extracted or synthesized DMT.

Is Syrian Rue + Mimosa (or another analogue) the same as Ayahuasca?

Experienced ayahuasca drinkers who have also had the opportunity to drink ayahuasca admixture brews, such as tea made from Syrian rue and Mimosa, generally conclude that the effects are substantially different. Most feel a strong connection to the ayahuasca vine, and understand this to be a fundamental, if not completely essential aspect of the ayahuasca experience and its healing properties.

Many have experienced profound healing and accessed visionary states not entirely unlike those produced by traditional ayahuasca brews, and most agree that modern analogue plants are extremely powerful and deserving of respect. However, analogue brews are not the same as ayahuasca and deserve unique status.

Aren’t B. Caapi and P. harmala alike chemically?

Many people think of the use of Banisteriopsis caapi and Peganum harmala as interchangeable. In truth they are both effective Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitors (MAOI’s) but there is a definite difference both chemically and in the subjective experience.

P. harmala contains many alkaloids including but not limited to: VASICINONE, HARMALINE, HARMALOL, HARMAN, HARMINE, ISOPEGANINE, DEOXYVASICINONE. It contains mixed amounts of harmala alkaloids (mainly harmine and harmaline) from 2%-7% in the seed. The harmaline in P. harmala is a very efficient MAOI and is present in significant, but lesser amounts then harmine. Harmaline has been shown in large doses to be neurotoxic to animals by effecting the degeneration of Purkinje cells in the brain.

While doses of that magnitude are rarely taken, those that are concerned may look to Banisteriopsis caapi as a source of harmala alkaloids due to an almost negligent amount of harmaline present.

Banisteriopsis caapi has a slightly different chemistry with the same harmala alkaloids present but in different proportions. B. caapi contains between 0.2%-1.3% mixed harmala alkaloids. The major difference between P. harmala and B. caapi, is the levels of harmaline and tetrahydroharmine. In P. harmala, the levels of harmaline are much higher, (which may also explain it’s greater MAOI effectiveness) while levels of tetrahydroharmine are absent, or in lesser quantities then B. caapi. The higher levels of tetrahydroharmine in B. caapi may be responsible for the very different subjective effects, and maybe even it’s reported “telepathic” inducing qualities observed. When first isolated from B. caapi, the harmala alkaloids were named “telepathine”, until further research showed them to be chemically identical to the compounds in P. harmala. Although both plants contain very similar alkaloids and both serve as effective MAOI’s, it is important to point out that both chemically, and through subjective experiences using them, that they are different.

There are clear biochemical differences between the vine and rue.

Callaway, J.C., M.M. Airaksinen, Dennis J McKenna, Glacus S. Brito, Charles S.Grob (1994). Platelet serotonin uptake sites increased in drinkers of ayahusaca. Psychopharmacology 116: 385-387

This paper focusses on ‘Tetrahydroharmine’ (harman, 7-methoxy-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro; harmine, 1,2,3,4-tetrahydro; b-carboline, 7-methoxy-1-methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro; 7-methoxy-1,2,3,4-tetrahydroharman; 1,2,3,4-tetrahydroharmine; 7-methoxy-1-methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-b-carboline; 7-meo-thh; leptaflorine). It discusses how THH generates receptor sites for serotonin thus producing a long lasting antidepressant effect. THH occurs in much greater concentration in B. caapi than in other plants bearing ß-carbolines, such as Peganum harmala (Syrian rue). THH may be (according to Dr Alexander Shulgin) completely absent from Syrian Rue.

Also there is the issue of Syrian Rue toxicity :

Dr Shulgin :
“There are two additional alkaloids that usually appear as gratuitous components in these latter samples (Syrian Rue), namely, Vasicine and Desoxyvasicine. I have no knowledge what these Syrian Rue quinazoline compounds might contribute, positively or negatively, to the Ayahuasca experience, but my gut feeling would be to avoid them until you know their pharmacological properties. The second question relates to yet another beta-carboline alkaloid, Harman. This is a structural analogue of Harmine that has been stripped of its methoxyl group…. it also interacts directly with DNA and is thus a possible mutagenic agent.” http://www.alchemind.org/shulgin/adsarchive/ayahuasca_maoi.htm

Harman is only present in trace amounts in banisteriopsis caapi. In Peruvian Ayahuasca brews assayed by Dennis McKenna, harmine represented 65% of the alkaloidal fraction, tetrahydroharmine 22%, DMT 8% and harmaline only 6%. A typical dose of the combined beta-carbolines Harmine, Harmaline, and Tetrahydroharmine, in an Ayahuasca brew, has been estimated by Mckenna to be 28mg harmine, 10mg tetrahydroharmine, and 2mg harmaline. Harmaline therefore only constitutes a small proportion of the total alkaloidal makeup of ayahuasca. Yet Harmaline is the primary beta-carboline component of Syrian rue.

Recommended: “The Scientific Investigation of Ayahuasca ; A review of past and current research” by D.Mckenna, J.C Callaway and Charles S Grob. Its in the first issue of The Heffter Review of Psychedelic Research volume 1 1998.

Another important matter to bring up in this section is the use of P. harmala as an abortificant/emmanagogue. (Emmanagogue is a substance that contracts or acts on the uterus, strong emmanagogues can easily induce abortions). The non-MAOI alkaloids are most likely responsible for this action. Boiled extractions of seeds are recommended over consuming whole seeds, to avoid ingesting some, but not all of the compounds in question.

“Although harmel has been described recently as an aphrodisiac, it is used traditionally by Bedouins as an emmanagogue and abortificant, as well as for “narcotic” purposes, properties documented in animal experiments.”
Ott, Pharmacotheon p 202

“Besides the beta-carboline alkaloids, epigeal parts of P. harmala contain quinazoline alkaloids such as visicine (peganine) and vasicinone, which have uterotonic effects possibly accounting for the use of P. harmala as an abortificant, and the related Tribulus terrestris is used as an emmanagogue in Thai ethnomedicine….. and the vasicine containing Adhatoda vasica is used in Thai ethnomedicine as an anti asthmatic and in Indian ethnomedicine as an abortificant.”
Ott, Pharmacotheon p 204

Are Caapi and Rue brews experientially similar?

People who focus on DMT as the main “point” of the Ayahuasca experience, and regard the MAOI merely as a potentiator for the DMT, tend not to notice any difference between Caapi and Rue.

One of the reasons for this is that, in a Rue-based brew, only the minimum amount of Rue is used necessary to potentiate the DMT. Increasing the Rue beyond the minimum necessary would serve little purpose beyond increasing the sense of sickness.

People who are used to taking this approach will often use the same approach with Caapi — use the minimum amount necessary to potentiate the tryptamines.

Using the bare minimum of Caapi, and focusing only on the visionary DMT effects as the “main event” can result in the impression that Caapi and Rue are similar and interchangeable (and Rue is much cheaper, so go for the bargain).

The difference, however, is that the amount of Caapi can be increased — without limit — and increasing the amount of Caapi can add a dimension of its own, a dimension of rich depth — it adds the whole Caapi dimension to the experience.

The indigenous Amazonian perspective is that Ayahuasca is the vine, and the admixture plants are her “helpers.” It is no accident that the brew is called “Ayahuasca,” the name of the vine. Most of the common native names for the brew — Ayahuasca, Yage, Caapi, Natema, Caapi, Dapa, Mihi, Kahi, Pinde, Nixi, etc — are also names for the Vine, whereas there is no record of any group naming the brew for the tryptamine-containing admixtures. It took many decades for the importance of the admixture plants even to be recognized by ethnobotanists, because every indigenous group recorded as using Ayahuasca stressed the Vine, and not uncommonly use Vine alone, and admixtures vary widely while the Vine is the common denominator.

The Santo Daime view is of a “marriage,” a Sacred Synergy, between Vine and Leaf, the Power and the Light. (The analogy between the tryptamine plants and Light with which to see what is happening is also made in indigenous cultures.

Vine alone can be visionary in high enough doses, but the visions are different from tryptamine visuals. Vine visions tend to be monochromatic, even shadowy, and they mean something, when they come. It is not eye-candy!

Visions of the type recorded in Pablo Amaringo’s paintings may be considered a marriage of Vine visions and Tryptamine visuals, both with both at high levels.

But one of the advantages of Caapi over Rue, for the home brewer, is that iyou have used the minimum possible amount of Rue or Caapi to potentiate the Leaf, but it turns out your Leaf is weak, then basically you have nothing — a dud brew or a weak brew. If, on the other hand, you have used a large amount of Caapi, and your Leaf is weak, the Caapi experience alone, with little or even no tryptamine visuals, can be profound and transforming.

And if your Leaf is strong, on the other hand, the Vine spirit can help guide and support you in the frightening depths of the realms. You are not alone.

The Vine is a being, a sentient Presence, who cares about you and accompanies you no matter where you go in the cave. She tends to present herself with a strong sense of gender — people describe feeling from the Vine not just a female or male presence, but a “strong” male or female presence. It may be that it is easier for humans, as a gendered species, to be able to relate to another being if it presents itself as gendered.

The primary use of Ayahuasca in Amazonian shamanism is for healing. The Vine is experienced by many people as a being or presence who can heal, who knows how to heal. Or as the Santo Daime says, the Vine is the Power in the marriage of Power and Light, and that Power is above all power to heal, at very deep levels.

Comments on Banisteriopsis Caapi (Ayahuasca Vine) vs Peganum Harmala (Syrian Rue):


For me, the experience of rue is somehow crystalline – like diamonds running through the veins. To my system, it feels cold and inorganic – as if the body would be shredded to bits if a muscle is moved. I won’t ingest rue – it feels like poison to my system. Perhaps one day I’ll grow it, but it’s not for this human’s consumption.

Caapi feels warm, organic and wise – friendly to (and knowing well) the human system. I love the taste of the tea (perhaps because I only reduce it by half, when brewing). For me, Caapi is Ayahuasca. I often use it without any admixture except blowing mapacho into it while brewing.

http://forums.ayahuasca.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=6886

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The first difference noticed was the level of intensity with which the trip kicks in. with 5meo or with a rue tea, I have always felt a very strong tryptamine rush; all of a sudden there’s a rip, a crash, and it has kicked in. after a time I became very scared of this, and was unable to handle it. With caapi, it comes on very slowly. As soon as I begin drinking, I begin feeling it, and an hour or so later I’m there. There is no harsh transition. Furthermore, I can feel the effects of the caapi; although I always felt that it was the rue communicating with me, not the mimosa, I never felt any effects from the rue itself other than nausea.

So the major differences, as I have experienced them-

Rue was female, caapi is male;

Rue is mostly only an maoi, while caapi has qualitative effects of its own;

Rue brings it on in a very intense fashion, while caapi is slower, smoother, perhaps more experienced/wiser;

Rue oscillates wildly between being really intense and not working at all, while caapi always works, but not in such an intense way;

With caapi, you aren’t restricted by the toxins found in rue and can use much larger amounts;

Taste- caapi is still very bitter, but it smells so nice and isn’t nearly as rough as rue.

With caapi I do always feel more aware, more “connected”. Rue just kind of opens up the floodgates, while caapi seems much wiser and more experienced; less erratic and more sure of what it is doing.

It also seems to have opened up a much deeper world, one with more facets than that of rue. Its obvious that there’s much more going on; not just a feeling that the universe is stranger than I’ve ever imagined, but how this directly affects me, particularly while dreaming. Its added a whole new twist; set and setting aren’t enough any more- there is much more to it than my own mindstate.

In the end, caapi is clearly “superior” to rue. Although it hasn’t shown me as much, it still seems much wiser, more steady and evenhanded.

http://forums.ayahuasca.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=6886

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People who focus on the Vine have experiences that are qualitatively different in some important ways from those who focus on the DMT plants.

In other words, let’s say there are three groups: a) people who take Caapi-based brews focusing first on Caapi, b) people who take Caapi-based brews focusing mainly on the DMT, c) people who take Rue-based brews focusing mainly on the DMT.

The experience of group B will resemble the experience of group C more than it will the experience of group A, in spite of the fact that group B is drinking the same brew as group a and a different brew from group C.

Groups B & C often have terrifying and traumatic experiences, especially with high DMT content. Group A experiences are not so traumatic because, when you have a relationship with the Vine, you are never alone. She accompanies you with her caring presence no matter how deep you go.

Also, group A tends to discover that there is no correlation between how deep an experience is and how visual it is — there is no correlation between how deeply you go into the cave and how bright your torch is. Sometimes people decide that they can have a deeper spiritual experience with a candle than with a floodlight. After all, they are accompanied by a wise Guide who will not let them fall.

But if you are alone in that strange cave, with a bright torch to see the incomprehensible, the experience can be very different. Even with a Caapi-based brew, if you are not attuned to the Caapi, it is like you are alone in there.

(Unless, of course, you have a shaman to guide you.)

To the Indians, Ayahuasca (the Vine) is the Mother of all Plants. She teaches humans how to communicate with plants. She led people to the admixtures and told them they were her helpers.

http://forums.ayahuasca.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=8003

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Rue is nice to have around for MAOI — it does seem to work as an anti-depressants agent on its own, does the trick for MAOI but, seems to me a shortcut for the real deal — the vine.

Just seems, IMO, rue/addmixture is more of a ‘singular’ experience as opposed to an ongoing path that is followed, with a more detailed ‘how to’ manual to study along the way.

Also with no other mixtures rue alone is just plain icky ???

whereas the vine seems it can be taken in larger amounts with much more profound insights and less body load.

http://forums.ayahuasca.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=3948

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I’ve been using Rue exclusively lately, money being somewhat scarce these days. I’m beginning to find a different entity all together with rue than that of the vine. The vine seemed to have more enduring benefits, an amazing “I’m ALIVE” feeling, and the insights were much more understandable and tangible, something I could bring back.

The rue brings a strange alien vibe to the experience, and it has benefits as well, but the overall healthy holy afterglow I got from the vine it seems to lack.

http://forums.ayahuasca.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=3679

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The after effects between caapi and rue are quite different. The rue combination brings him from slightly down and dysphoric to neutral and dysphoric while the caapi combo takes him to happy and optimistic and at times, slightly euphoric.

http://forums.ayahuasca.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=4050

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rue + admix visuals tend to be bright light almost circus colors in the red/pinkish red, yellow and light blue tones. The overall journey tends to feel more “heady” with a tendency to a lot of thinking

caapi + admix visuals are more in the dark blood red, deep purples, dark greens, and dark gold color range with a more deeply lumious quality, while the overall journey seems to be much more embodied and grounded with stronger physical energetic, kundalini-ish component. Overall more blissful.

http://forums.ayahuasca.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=3948

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Visually the vine does seem to go for much more deeper darker organic colors and rue much more electric with vibrant reds, oranges and works on a higher frequency-faster spin, sometime leading to ‘bed spins’ as opposed to more of a immersed feel into self.

http://forums.ayahuasca.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=3948

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As for the rue, there are several reasons that it’s rather unpopular around here. first — rue is quite unpleasent in taste and smell, and is full of tannins and toxic chemicals that make it difficult to keep down (and that can be hazardous to your health!)

second is sort of a two part answer. First, ayahuasca is a vine, not just a tea — the b caapi vine itself is called ayahuasca. traditionally, you can’t have an ayahuasca brew without ayahuasca; the focus of the ceremony is on the vine itself, with the admixtures–sometimes ones that don’t contain any dmt–considered very important helper plants, but not ayahuasca itself.

of course, it’s silly to hang on to tradition for tradition’s sake. but aside from the traditional emphasis on the ayahuasca vine, ime it seems that rue and caapi are different teachers. they have fairly similar chemical signatures, yes, but not equivelant ones. The experiences engendered by each plant are different. ime, the vine just has more experience working with humans, and plays a greater role actually interacting and guiding the experience; the rue, on the other hand, just kinda says “here ya go!!” and leaves it at that. they are both useful, but in somewhat different ways. caapi gives one a more centered, controlled experience, while rue just kinda throws you into the stratosphere and says good luck.

i’d also highly recomend against chewing the seeds. you really don’t want to do that. (well, i’m not you, maybe you do want to do that . . . ) chewing the seeds will make it much more difficult to keep down than a rue tea, and they really don’t taste good!

also, using only rue with no admixture is a very different experience than caapi with no admixture–again, they are different teachers. eating some rue will not help you get to know the ayahuasca spirit. as i’ve said, in my experience at least, the rue tends not to take a very strong role in the ayahuasca experience; while caapi makes its presence known, rue tends to let the admixture shine through while staying in the background.

of course, this is all based on my own experience. everyone needs different things and experiences things differently, which is why i do think that rue can be a valuable ally. it isn’t the same as the vine, but that doesn’t make it useless or bad. to figure out what you need and want, you of course need to examine your own experience, which will take some time and some experiences to examine.

http://forums.ayahuasca.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=11337

7 Comments

  1. Ipajii says

    First I must convey that I think this site is very good indeed and a source of great inpiration! :0) I’m a 35 year old archaeologist and a Teacher and after a break of 7-8 years from my beloved Mushrooms have recently began working with my Friends, Others and Plant Teachers utilising Rue and Mimosa Hostilis root bark. First, I took a cold infusion of Jurema to See what She was like. This was Phenomenal!! as I’m also a guitarist and decided to play for Her to sooth my nerves and apprehension after drinking Her. Absolutely fantastic!! :0) The following day/night I then prepared both Syrian Rue and Jurema very carefully and great deal of respect and positive emotions. I took Syrian first and waited for over an hour before then taking Her. As a result a was able to confirm a very tangeable and powerful effect from the Syrian seeds alone, amounting to a ‘sub-threshold’ and ‘about to come through’ physiological effect. I’m experienced with a whole range of plants and herbs since a very young age and have lived and worked in Israel, India, Mexico, Scotland, Sri Lanka, Thailand, England, Spain, Ireland, Italy. I also began training in Zen meditation and the martial arts fro the age of 10 years old and continued through with Tibet Buddhism, Wicca, Shamanism and so forth. The combination of Syrian and Jurema was quite simply 5-6 hours of the most breath taking, awesome, amazing encounters and experineces beyond anything I could have anticipated!! :0)
    I was very aware of what I was doing, asking and inviting…The Very Powerful Prescence of the Goddess was absolutely Divine! Then equally as shcoking for me was His Exquisite Appearance…this was something that I certainly wasn’t anticipating. Actually this very strong Male Female series of Appearnaces was quite startling as its something I’ve never encounterd before and I was intend of only communicating with Goddess.I actually initially said ” No” to my Rue Male Teacher….as I also did did a series of ‘Appearances’ from some more sinister looking Male and female ‘Peoples’. This was something that greatly impressed, the fact that I could turn to the Presence at my ‘Right’, the Goddess and say I don’t want/like this and I would be immediatley ‘taken away’ by her to somewhere else. Also, that I even said directly to a few ‘Characters’ ” erhmm, no thanks ” and that was all that was necessary. My Male Teacher made and appearance later, I think he was somewhat bemused by the fact that I was under the strong influence of My Own Astounishment/Amazement at all the Self-Transforming Elves, artifacts, landscapes and Motiffs. My constant:
    “Wow that amazing and that’s amazing ..oh how beautiful…now that incredible and your fantastic!!”
    I sensed that he was slightly embarrassed by my behaviour in the middle of the street, where it seemed that I’d made a sudden and unexpected appearnaceor, that my reaction was unexpected. He was patiently waiting for me to gain my composure. The ‘Street was fairly busy with people coming and going as in a fairly typical High Street. What wasn’t typical was His and their appearances! His clothes and attire of a kind I had never seen before though that seemed also completely familiar, (this was a re-occuring ambience and has continued with further Encounters), he seemed somehow Central Asian though in a manner I have never seen, his features so exquisite that they approximated caligraphy!!! I felt somehow that it was all ‘Tocharianesque’ was the way that I verbalised it to him……after a while of patiently awaiting for me to cease being so over come with amazement he suddenly said “would it be better if I took on if I looked like this” and then transformed into an ‘Energy Glyph’ of some sort!!! I burst out laughing and said actually in that form he looked positively ‘mundane’/ not startling at all, very familiar and ordinary!! :0) He seemed to throw his hands up in the air with mock despair and was gone….as I tried to call after him that I wasn’t being rude(this I was genuinely wanted to convey, through my laughter) citing that I was a Novice to all This Amazement!! :0)
    I have read in detail what people have been writing here with great interest. I understand fully that this is a site dedicated to Ayahuasca, and as such, the views here with be weighted in that direction. I feel that we shouldn’t assign the name Anahuasca to analogues for a number of important reasons. Rue and Jurema are a different Marriage altogether. Rue is a seed from a flowering plant, Jurema root bark fro a shrun related to the Arcia tree family. I believe that Rue is actually Haoma/Soma and so I feel that it is quite surprising to hear people talking of ayahuasca having more contact/experience dealing with people. As human populations only entered into the Americas, reaching the Western coast of Chile some 11000-15000 years ago. They for along time stayed on the coastal areas whoes routes they had followed down. It took a long time for these early populations to then venture inland, for they had to gradually learn about the new and varied flora and fauna that they could and could not exploit. We must contrast this with length of time that hominid population were in Africa and Eurasia that’ 3-4 million years, then 100,000 years ago homo sapiens sapiens appeared in Africa before migrating out, then around 60-40,0000 years ago was the inexplicit explosion of Art and Culture of these peoples. Rues contact with humans is ancient by any wildy reductionist conservative estimate, as the Great Teacher Soma himself can show you, the very routes that Rue flourishes also saw the floursihing of All The Great Ancient Civilisations. Even the migrants who eventually made the relatively late(modern) crossing to the Americas passed through/came from this Landscape of Africa/Eurasia. Rue was Sacredly Married to the Acacia Tree, the World Tree, The Cosmic Tree……the contact with humans goes right back to the ‘beginnigs’!!
    I’m aware of the dangers with Rues but it also possesses many medical properties that are actually very positive in any Midwives repetoire. If there are dangers, I think that they are timely and for a purpose to warn the reckless, the unprepared, the unintiated, the niave. Preparation is everything and this is something that many of us in the West especially are not accustomed to, we want everything at the flick of a switch. I believe the Sacred Seed/Flower and Tree Sacrement is not to be taken lightly or underestimated. I feel that it is of the upmost importance for Pyschonauts and Explorers to First Know Where They Have Come From, Before they can no Where they are going. It’s the First Rule of Navigation!! If you don’t know where you have come from, how on Earth can you know whee you ae going???? It’s akin to tryin to run and leap before you can even crawl…..of course your going to Fall!!!
    Anyhow, I truly look forward to my first encounter with The Sacred Vine and the Leaf….safe in the Knowledge that I’ve undergone the ‘Ordeal’ of meeting an Ancient Plant Teacher who apparently has no recognised experience, lineage or contact with my kind, until today !! :0)

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  3. I have been using DMT fumerate (extracted from Mimosa root) with Moclobemide as the MAOI. I take 300 mg Moclobemide 30 minutes before the DMT fumerate. I like using this combination for two reasons: 1) I have more precise control over the dosage, and 2) No purge. Since I don’t live in an area where I’m prone to getting intestinal parasites, there is no medical reason for the purge and I don’t believe there is any spiritual value in vomiting. I have found this combination works very well as a spiritual catalyst with peak effects lasting 2-3 hours and significant effects lasting 10-12 hours. Namaste!

  4. medchemist says

    To this discussion I will add a cautionary word of advice regarding P. harmala and M. hodtilis admixtures. I used a tea prepared from exactly 3.0g Syrian Rue seeds and 3.0 – 6.0g jeruma on a fairly regular basis some 5 years ago. My friend also participated in these experiences with me. The tea was prepared by three consecutive extractions of the two plant materials mixed together in the ratio stated. The solvent was 1/4 lemon juice water, and the temperature was just at the point of a light boil for all three extractions. Plant material was removed by filtration through a white cotton t-shirt in every case. The experiences from this teas decoction are unequaled by anything I have ever known in my life. Unfortunately, following about a half a year of using this tea about twice per month on average, I developed drug-induced hepatitis, bloody urine, and grey stools. A visit to the doctor revealed that my liver AST and ALT levels were through the roof. My firend also had this same result. After cessation of tea consumption, we both returned to normal health. I cannot say whether it was the jerume, the rue, or both plants that caused this, and there were no other drugs in the equation in either my case or my friend’s case. I am no a pharmaceutical scientist, and I cannot find any systematic studies that have been done on the various admixtures of ayahuasca that prove or discount liver/kidney toxicity. However, i would urge anyone who is thinking about traveling the sweet road of ayahuasca visions to take care to avoid jeruma and syrian rue. Again, I do not know that the vine and chacruna are any easier on the liver, but I can say for certain that in two different cases, frequent use of rue and jeruma is a road to hepatotoxicity. I would also think that those who are already hepatocompromised should avoid rue and jeruma at all costs. I dislike that this is the case, because I loved the stuff, but I think there needs to be strong scientific evidence that ayahuasca is not systemically toxic. Unfortunately, such evidence is lacking at this writing. Try the vine and chacruna if you must, but be careful even then, and make sure you get check ups and bloodwork from your doctor to ensure that your liver and kidneys are not being compromised. For my part, I regard either rue or jeruma as unacceptably toxic. Tread with caution folks, and stay free.

  5. medchemist says

    I apologize for the type-o’s above. Keyboard is acting crazy

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  7. Percival Perserverence says

    I am grateful to all of the members of this community and others like it that promote education and safety, over fear and loathing for something incomprehensible to them, such as the interest and passion we share for teacher plants and other sacraments of spiritual exploration. I have been investing time and energy into thoroughly researching ayahuasca analogs, and chose to work with Rue and Mimosa for experiments that have transpired over the last month five months. Only in the most recent 2 months have I finally taken the car out of the garage for several test drives. I apologize if that seems like a reckless or juvenile metaphor to some. I can assure you that the intent and focus and love with which I have tried to coax into existence these powerful allies is by no means of a juvenile or reckless nature. I am a long-standing member of the “self-initiated” and I could not have lasted as long as I have without the utmost sincere and respectful approach to these endeavors. I am in need of help from you people: My people!
    I cant seem to get the timing right for M.A.O inhibition in the stomach. I have tried exactly six times. Starting with taking the rue and mimosa together, and each subsequent time I have taken the mimosa ten minutes later than the previous. this means I am now pushing the fifty minute mark for taking the mimosa brew and according to some whispers, whether based in science or personal experience, this is too late; inhibition of the enzymes in the gut would have ceased and any dmt destroyed. Other reports suggest this is not always the case for some people. I believe my brewing technique to me sound and focused, and my materials to be active as well as dosage tuned in. then again, one can only be sure by extraction methods and lets say that is above my common-sense-type of pay-grade for now. I have also tried pre-dosing with the rue and then taking the “real” dose shortly after so as to prep the stomach for absorbtion. I have not experienced nausea, but I willed myself to puke after walking my dog at least an hour and a half after ingesting both brews and sure enough, there was plenty of liquid sloshing around up to that point in me guttiwots as a droogie of mine used to say. I am a believer in fasting. But here I also run into conflicting experiences of fellow psychonauts. Does anyone out there know of a breakdown of the timing of gut enzymes (mao) so as to allow the DMT to metabolize? Does pre-dosing help? Should I push the envelope above 10 g. of Mimosa per dose? I thought that as long as the road is paved by mao inhibition, I shouldn’t need to go to higher doses. My primary focus is to rule out that I just dont have the timing correct. Much appreciation and gratitude to all.

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